Interview with Dorothy Bennett, board member

By Nayo Watkins

Nayo Watkins: Dorothy Bennett is a board member. And, Dorothy, you were saying that before you got on the board they had you volunteer. Can you start back that far and talk about why you were doing it?

Dorothy Bennett: I guess I must have enjoyed it, since I wasn’t getting any money for it. And Carpetbag’s basic organizational, developmental premises are kind of consistent with things I value. As a volunteer, I basically did grunt work, I call it. I would pass out handbills, take notes for the meetings, try to invite people to come and see the plays or activities Carpetbag was doing. I had access to some community funding, so it was funding that I was steering the direction of Carpetbag. Get money to them so that they could do some of the work that they were doing. I tried to explain to other people what they did so that the community would be more receptive to be involved with their activities.

NW: Talk about that a little bit – what they did at Carpetbag that was something the community needed to know about.

DB: To me it was a different form of community organization or community education. An artistic form, as opposed to what my career was, which was a more traditional community organization/club approach, leadership-development approach. Theirs was more creative, hopefully more exciting and stimulating than the other, so that perhaps people would be more inclined to become involved. So, that’s the way I thought we complimented one another in terms of what we were trying to do. I guess, in ways, I am an old-time traditionalist in the sense that I was always taught that education was one of the keys that you needed for survival and for progress, and I still believe that. This was another form of education, but it was education. To me it was still a possibility that if people understood more about their community, more about themselves, and were more willing to come together as a group to address whatever that understanding led them to, it might be more likely that there could be progress.

NW: What kind of work were you doing?

DB: Part of the time I was director of training and development for this community, for this city and county that we live in. That means that I was responsible for administering the training levels for year-round services to "disadvantaged people in the community" and responsible for designing ways for various training to be provided to the citizens. I was always looking for ways for Carpetbag to interface with that objective. It was always challenging because Carpetbag had become untraditional in a sense, and part of the challenge was to help people understand the nontraditional. And that’s still today a challenge in this community and communities throughout the country. But I think it’s a very valid objective for use of art and theater, because I’ve seen the results of how that can work.

NW: Do you still do that kind of work? Are you still in that field?

DB: I do it from a private-sector role, working along with the city and the county. I’m with a private company and basically the work I do now is consulting – more from the other end of it as opposed to government.

NW: In your opinion what is Carpetbag? What does it do? What’s its purpose?

DB: I think its purpose is uplifting, in a sense. Its purpose is people. Its purpose is motivation. Its purpose is creative. Its purpose is to stimulate. Its purpose is to get people outside the circle or outside the box to look at things. Instead of painting the room beige, maybe you paint the room red, or you paint the room orange. I think that’s its purpose. And to put that in a larger context, last week the head of the Chamber of Commerce said to me that he was involved in a project in the African-American community and he felt the project was important because it was a sort of a role model for our community. And I said to him as politely as I could that I was to the point in my life that I didn’t really care about any more role models. I thought that we had plenty of role models. I thought that what I wanted to be involved in was something that was more direct and more specific in terms of actually benefiting individuals who were suffering from whatever the problem was. I wanted some direct results, I didn’t want any abstract results. I didn’t want to have to wonder what happened after a million dollars was spent. If there was no more than putting part of that million dollars in their hands and letting them do whatever they want with it. I am not interested in any images.

I guess I say all of that to say that to me Carpetbag puts out to this community – and to other communities where I’ve been with them – ways to produce direct results to individuals. I think they stimulate a different way to approach it, and in my mind the traditional ways have not worked in addressing so many things. We have to be willing to pursue new ways. And Carpetbag gives us new ways to explore and confirm maybe our humanity, if there is any such thing. I am not sure there is. You know, if there is, then maybe they give us some new ways to confirm that indeed it is part of everyone of us – in a positive sense, as opposed to we seem to be much more able to perpetuate the negative in our interaction with one another. They give us some positive ways to confirm that is possible. That’s sort of what Carpetbag is to me. That’s a lot of what it is. I don’t know that I have ever been involved in anything with Carpetbag that was not spiritually uplifting for me. It is something that says, well maybe, just maybe we’ll get a little bit further along.

NW: In terms of the topics and issues that Carpetbag chooses to address, the main messages that they deliver through their plays or the main issues they attack through their projects – how does that process work, to the best of your knowledge, and is the board ever involved in the discussions that lead to that?

DB: The process is a forum of sorts, an exchange of ideas. Whether it’s writing a play for the kids to do and developing that subject, to planning how you going to go into a community and what you are going to look for and how you are going to exercise care to let people from that community become involved in that process and kind of explore their circumstances and define solutions for themselves, assume responsibility for themselves, identify their issues, as opposed to Carpetbag’s issues. So I think it can go in both directions. If it’s a Carpetbag thing, like a play that’s to be written by Carpetbag – like in the instance of the teenagers, I know of at least three or four plays that have been developed for teenagers, and those have come from the young people, from the discussions and observations and engaging the young people in thought about their lives and their needs, ways to communicate more effectively with their peers than adults seem to be able to do. And letting that process dictate a product, a play. And thinking about it I can recall a play that dealt with a runaway teenager. I can recall one that dealt with alcohol. I can recall one that dealt with sex and drugs, one on the environment that was done for an audience in New Orleans – and I’ve forgotten what they called the area down there where all that pollution is –

NW: Cancer Alley.

DB: Okay. And I went down twice with them then to put that together and we went out to the neighborhoods and talked to everybody, from the most elderly citizens who were at a senior-citizen center. And that process began by them having memories of what life was like when they were very young, and what was good about it that life – to what life was like presently, and what was good and what was bad about it. And it involved everything from them talking about the first game they remember playing as a very young child to memories of their parents and their homes and their modes of transportation – riding on mules, walking miles and miles – but all done in a very pleasant and uplifting way where they could be comfortable and where they could appreciate who they were and where they came from, where they could feel good about those things.

NW: Were you doing that as a board member when you went down there?

DB: I was doing that as a consultant of the group, because there are occasions when I consult with Carpetbag on their projects. They had invited me a few times to be with them and kind of look at what they do from my perspective as a different kind of community organizer. And from a different business perspective. I guess I do things a little bit different, not coming directly from the arts, and having worked in the community with different tools. So we sort of blend the things that they have with the things that I have to try to see what can develop from our different perspectives. And I worked with Carpetbag in New Orleans and Mississippi and Michigan, as well as working with them on various summer projects.

NW: What’s been your favorite project, or the one you’ve found most satisfying?

DB: All of them have pieces that I like, one being the one in New Orleans with the senior citizens, because those people covered so much time in their lives, and the times of simple things that they appreciated so much were so obvious. Materially they seemed to have so little, but spiritually they seemed to be so far beyond where many people could ever venture to go. And it was just in them. It was part of them. It was like this ever-present glow once somebody took the time to look and allowed them to share this. It was so powerful. If we decided that people should be engaged in programs that promote love and understanding and education and diversity and so forth – I wonder what we would be like. I wonder what the world would be like.

NW: Do you think that Carpetbag reaches towards putting out those kinds of images?

DB: I think they struggle with it in everything they do. It is part of what they try so hard to do. And it is missed so much by the community at large.

NW: The community that Carpetbag brings together – what’s the interaction between the theater and the community?

DB: I would start again with the children, because they make such an effort to include at least the teenagers. It is an ongoing effort to reach out to the teenagers, to include them as part of the community of Carpetbag. And you certainly can’t exclude the college and their constant effort to work with this campus and helping them to expand what is available here for the students and include the students as interns, as volunteers. The community organizations like the American Festival Project – there’s been upward of 65 or so people sitting around at an American Festival meeting maybe representing 30 different organizations. Each of those entities has a constituency. There are collaborations between Carpetbag and the Rape Crisis Center, the Abused Women’s Center, the prison system and so forth. That, all of those are the community. The Writer’s Guild and the Poetry Guild and the Literacy Center – all of those places are communities. They continually need ways to be engaged and to see the building being built. It is an ongoing challenge to keep the community marching or stepping towards what is their goal; in terms of participation and learning and becoming an effective collective of sorts that gets the strength to stay together without having these little bitty things they do to keep them together.

NW: How does the community affect the theater? How does it impact the theater’s work?

DB: It impacts it in a positive way by partaking in what the theater wants to offer and by helping the theater define and shape that by its very presence. And I think back to the play Carpetbag does, "Red Summer." That is a community play to me, and that says something about this community. And I think about the three or four youth plays that Carpetbag has done. That’s community impact. And when people came to see it they could identify with it because they knew something about what was going on with their teenagers and what was going on in the community. So that, to me, is community.

Then in a different way, it impacts Carpetbag by its limited presence, by its cautiousness of sort. The community is not an aggressive community – or an assertive community would be a more diplomatic word. The community is a community that whispers things that are perhaps truths about the community. The community does not shout out words like racism, classism, homophobic. Those things are not shouted. They don’t shout things like exploitation of workers. They don’t shout things like de facto segregation. They don’t shout things like schools filled with racism who throw children out rather than embracing children. They don’t shout things like condemned, dilapidated housing. They don’t shout things like overtaxation of the poor. None of those things are shouted. If the community was more pro-active, then Carpetbag could be more pro-active. But Carpetbag, to me, is limited like any other institution is limited by virtue of where they are and where the people are. And if Carpetbag were more assertive in its art presentations to the community and the kinds of programs they did with the community, I dare say, it couldn’t be on this college campus. It wouldn’t have any audience much.

NW: Do you think that in what it does it pushes the button a little bit?

DB: Sure, sure. Carpetbag is on the edge of what this community permits. Very much on the edge. And for many people it’s too far out anyway. That’s part of the problem. And, you know, it is not perceived by the powers and the system as – it’s not the same as Clarence Brown Theatre at the university. So where the university can draw 500 people to a play that talks about something that probably won’t change one life in a disadvantaged community, Carpetbag. on the other hand, has difficulty drawing that same thing.

NW: If you would, talk about how the leadership works inside the organization.

DB: It’s like a right-to-work state. There’s a right to participate at Carpetbag, and you can participate in leadership to the extent that you are willing to. If one does not put themselves out there to participate then you may be called and asked to do specific things. And if after several efforts to solicit participation that does not come about, then the effort to engage people in leadership is lessened. So it sort of narrows the leadership down to those who really want to be present and contribute whatever resources they might have to offer.

NW: Going back to the time you started with the organization and coming forward, what would have been the major changes in the organization over time?

DB: The first thing that crosses my mind is staffing itself. Moving from Linda to Margaret Miller to Jeff Cody to Carolyn. And moving from the emphasis on the ensemble, the theater part of Carpetbag which at one point just was very active in their travel and their presentations, although not in this community, but across the country. Moving from that to more workshop kinds of activities, to the literacy-type projects. That has been, I think, just a great change in Carpetbag, because for a while the ensemble was just ever-present. Very strong.

NW: How do you feel about the changes?

DB: I would like to see both hands on it, and I know why we can’t have both hands on it. Part of it is leadership. To do all of those things, the thing that holds it together is Linda. And like I said to Linda, having experienced it myself, there is a time in life when you can physically go 14-16 hours and be as sharp as a tack, and not miss a beat, and juggle 24 things 24/7. And there is a time when you begin to realize that you just don’t want to go 24/7, and want is not the right word, you can’t go 24/7. Your mind may say "go," but your body says "hey, uh-uh."

NW: She’s been doing this for 30 years. That’s a lot to think about.

DB: That’s a lot to think about. And having seen her do it, having worked with her from dawn to dusk and knowing what it takes to do it, I am certainly concerned about the leadership and the continuation of what she has dedicated her life to. Because her mind may say "keep going, keep going, keep going" but there is a point when you can not juggle the same thing. I remember when I had budget of five million dollars, and I could tell you everything in my budget. I’d have to think about it. I didn’t need a calculator. I could tell you who the sub-contractors were, I could tell you who the 1,000 people who were in the program, and tell you what they were doing in the classroom. It didn’t require any significant filing. It didn’t require any notes. Just do it. Fine. Now I have about four notebooks, a computer, telephone messages, and I refer to everything I can figure out to refer to try and make sure that I don’t miss something. And I need to keep up with it. And physically, the same kind of thing. To get up in the morning and to throw stuff on a truck and then go sit down at a computer and type up something and concentrate and stay focused and so forth – that is – we take it for granted.

NW: There’s so many wonderful young people who come through, learn a lot, gain a lot, grow a lot and is it possible to hold onto some of those young people?

DB: Not if the money isn’t there. See, Linda has done this as a labor of love. A true labor of love. Making nothing. When she talks to me about money I just look at her and laugh. It isn’t even of this world, when you are talking about $6 an hour. You can’t even talk to work-study students about $6 an hour. Just not. If the money does not change we won’t make it. We will not make it.

NW: And moneywise, it is pretty well strapped to arts money. Am I understanding that?

DB: It’s Tennessee Arts money. It’s money that is directed towards very specific projects. And what Linda has chosen to do, and I respect her very much for it, she has chosen to take the money and apply it to projects to try and spread it as far in the community and the project initiatives as possible. She has focused very little on salary. And I couldn’t even call them salaries, that would be the wrong thing to call them, wages would be as close as it came and that would be stretching it. And in doing that, the wages have stayed very low. And of course, having no fringe benefits is just not something most people can afford to even do. I sat in on the last set of interviews she did for an administrative person, and we interviewed three or four very fine candidates. Spent a long time in that process and we lost them all. We lost every one of them because we could not compete on the salary end and the fringe-benefit end. Every one of them proved to be fine, fine young people. Energy, new ideas, just dynamic people.

NW: It seems like one of the dilemmas might be if you were the great theater that’s putting on the great plays for the big audiences and that sort of thing, that your ticket sales and arts funding – but in this place called community-based art, community based theater, you can only get so much from the arts. And then sometimes you get questioned for: Is it art? Or is it social work? It seems like maybe there is a piece of money that should be coming from someplace else that is very difficult to get.

DB: It is. Because people will have to be willing to define ways to get you the money. As I say, when I was controlling the budget I looked for ways to include Carpetbag. And it took some effort to read the laws and figure out how that could work for them, and if you’re not willing to take that effort it’s not automatic that they fit. And, it’s being on the fringes. We have talked about Carpetbag should be getting recreation money from the city and from the county. They certainly serve a number of young people, and do just a very fine job in the serving. But being on the fringes, the city doesn’t see Carpetbag as a value or a threat. And they have to be one. They have to have enough voting constituency that says, "We want Carpetbag." Carpetbag doesn’t go out there and put out petitions to say we need 500 names to take to City Council to convince them that we should be part of the budget for recreation. To present them in a way that is less threatening to the city fathers and to the director of the recreation program.

The same thing with employment and training. Carpetbag does just a fine job with young people in terms of attitude changes. We spent a lot of money on prevocational attitudes and vocational attitudes and this sort of thing. Carpetbag does a wonderful job of that. They teach them to communicate. They teach them to have the right presence in terms of the eye-to-eye contact, the self-esteem. The schools pay for that. They have a prevocational program. The homemaker’s program pays for it, the training program pays for it. Our junior college, a program that is right here in the community, just got $600,000. Carpetbag doesn’t get any of that.

NW: And the fact of staffing probably keeps it from having the time to develop that? In the change from the ensemble being out there and performing a lot on tour and so forth, to now, any change in the quality in the artistic product?

DB: If quality means less of, then there’s change. Less of availability of theater, then yes there is change.

NW: If quality means skill and craft in presentation?

DB: Not really, because the same people are a part of the cast. I think there has been one occasion where quality was impacted, and I don’t think it had anything to do with the change. I think it had to do with adequate time, and taking on more than should have been taken on. And having a leader who’s human, and had to deal with the fact that 24 hours a day means part of that time you rest. Beyond that, I’ve said to Linda that I think there have been occasions where the product has been so superb that is frightening to think what the expectations are for the next one. And that worries me, because again it is her leadership in putting together pieces so well that the product is just superior.

NW: How does the organization do evaluation? How do you know?

DB: I’ve been involved from the ground to the completion of many projects. In terms of doing anything paper-wise, or where it is like a strategic evaluation of sort that looks at leadership, resources, long-range planning, short-range planning, training, physical accountability, and those kinds of things – I can do that only because I have been there, not because we have written anything out. I would question whether anybody else on the board could even come close to effectively evaluating Carpetbag because they haven’t been present. Whatever they see is whatever piece they may have had to do, play or something they came to, a phone call or something that is beyond that.

NW: So, is there any way that Carpetbag, as a whole, sits back and says "what are we doing here"?

DB: I know that Linda does, and we have done that together when Margaret Miller was here, talking about it, laying out some sort of draft ways to do it. And I think what happens is Linda gets caught up between being the art director and the administrator and the time doesn’t allow her to follow-up and finish those kinds of things.

NW: Do you think a broader kind of thing is needed? Would that really be helpful if you had an engaged group – whether it’s the board, or the board and staff, a nucleus of folks to do something that said this is an evaluation?

DB: If I had a preference and were able to engage and activate a group of people who were interested in Carpetbag, my first priority would not be the evaluation process. My first priority would be to try to ensure that nucleus had an understanding and respect for Carpetbag’s mission, and that they committed themselves to methods, techniques that would try to ensure the longevity of the organization, getting the community that Carpetbag seeks to engage more involved in Carpetbag’s activities and products. So I would respect evaluation, but if I got that nucleus I think I would not go there first.

NW: In terms of partnerships in the community, what do they lend to the work? Like there’s the law partnership, the sexual-assault center, there’s literacy, so forth – what do these partnerships lend to the work?

DB: The first thing that crosses my mind is a broader constituency, diversity in terms of the kinds of people that are aware of Carpetbag. The next thing that crosses my mind is that they bring some resources, sometimes very limited, but some additional resources to the continuation of Carpetbag. They, of course, bring some additional work, administrative work, artistic work that is necessary.

NW: Can you think of any cases in which they are more trouble than they are worth?

DB: I can think of a number of them. That was part of what was on my mind. But, I have to say, that is one of the areas where Linda and I differ and we sort of agree to disagree. And it’s good that Linda is doing this and not me sometimes, because of her abilities to give and keep giving. I’ve said to her, "I’m just not as good as you are, I’m just not," because sometimes I want people to just think well, maybe you ought to give back a little bit. Just a little bit. So, in my mind sometimes Carpetbag gives much, much, much more than it gets back. But somewhere in her vision she sees that as part of Carpetbag and I have to respect that, and think and hold that she’s right about that. We laugh on occasion about, if I go for a meeting, for myself, what I say and what she says is very different – and it is heard in a different way, and it leaves a different impression. You know – Linda goes to meetings, and when the meeting is over they hug Linda. They are very loving and kind and so forth. I go to meetings and when the meeting is over people say, "Let me stand back as far as I can from you, cause obviously we are not together on this issue." And it’s a different approach.

Nayo Watkins is an arts and community consultant who lives in Durham, N.C. She is sole proprietor of Bodacious Consulting and Organizing. Her work has included helping to build collaborations and partnerships between artists and communities that explore the relationship between art, culture, activism and empowerment. She served as coordinator for the Mississippi American Festival Project and for the N.C.-based Alternate ROOTS Community Artist Partnership Project. She was writer/facilitator for "Parables to Policy," an Internet project of Southern Rural Development Initiative and was consultant to the Mississippi Young Person’s Cultural Exchange. Prior to becoming an independent consultant, she served as executive director of the African American Dance Ensemble (Durham), At the Foot of the Mountain Theatre (Minneapolis), and the Mississippi Cultural Arts Coalition (Jackson), and as program assistant for the Afro-American Studies Program of the University of Mississippi. As an artist, Watkins is a poet, essayist, playwright and performer. Her poems and essays have appeared in literary anthologies and journals. As a playwright, she draws upon oral histories and participatory research to create plays rooted in place, people, culture and community. Productions of her commissioned plays have been staged in Port Gibson, Itta Bena and Oxford, Mississippi, and in Durham and Wake Forest, North Carolina. Her work is included in the repertory of actors John O’Neal, Cynthia Watts and Yolanda King.

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